Interviews

As a part of the project, we to reached out to experts on the matter of Panama disease, industry professionals and people who simply love bananas to know their opinion. We asked them on a range of aspects, from the purely technical to the environmental. Here the summaries of the four interviews are shown.

Luud is the head of the Task Force on Fusarium wilt Tropical Race 4, an organization within FAO to fight Panama disease. He also works in Technical Assistance for Sustainable Trade & Environment (TASTE) and has ample experience in rural development. Luud explained to us how Panama disease is spreading and devastating banana plantations, and what he sees as the paths that will lead to end, or at least mitigate, this crisis.

How would you describe the crisis caused by Panama disease, and its consequences for farmers and developing countries?
"There are several situations that we have to distinguish. In Asian countries like the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan, China, etc. it causes huge losses for the banana sector. Although as a whole there is not a big drop in production, the consequences in Asia are disastrous, not only for big companies but also for small farmers. And there is no effective control method against this soil borne fungus, so it’s a really big threat. We have the precedent of the Gros Michel banana, which was virtually wiped out during the past century as a commercial crop in monoculture systems for export, although it still lives on today in mixed systems, for example, in cocoa plantations. Here, Race 1 doesn’t get the chance it gets in monoculture systems. Perhaps something like this can be a solution to reduce the problem with TR4 to something manageable.
It has also shown up recently in Jordan and Mozambique, but there are contradictory reports on the effects. Nonetheless, this is a dangerous situation: Mozambique is nearby other countries with millions of small owners of banana plantations, not only for self-consumption but also to sell in local markets. It’s a really important source for their livelihoods. We are not talking here only about big banana companies suffering losses, but also food security in a continent like Africa.
The agenda in Asia is containment, using quarantine measures and so on, while in Africa, the Caribbean, Latin America… policies focus on how to delay the arrival of Panama disease as much as possible, because eventually TR4 will arrive. Meanwhile they will have to look into a solution for the problem, like finding a resistant cultivar, which would take between 10 to 15 years, or to find a means of cultivation which would reduce the threat, for example."

So far you have mentioned quarantine measures, multicultivation systems…but are there solutions in development that you consider promising?
"Several companies are doing research on methods to control the fungi in the soil. I know that some other fungi have been controlled through biological methods. Others have used chemical products; I’m not a specialist in the matter but that sounds like it could create problems in the long run. Such things have been done to control nematodes, and these products destroy a lot of soil life and biodiversity. It can even worsen the problem by killing the competitors of the nematodes. The soil is still very much a black box, we have to be very cautious about it."

How long do you think it would take for TR4 to spread to Latin America?
"It’s difficult to say. It depends on our preventive measure: if someone goes from the Philippines to Latin America with dirty boots, it’s already there. There are many factors in play, like container shipping. Each year there are 100 million container movements in the world, a great deal of them in the fruit and vegetable business, and there are really no protocols to disinfect them, so they can be vectors of transmission. Or another example, representatives from agrochemical companies, who travel all year visiting farms, can also carry the disease. So people, tools, machinery…can all transport the disease, and delaying the arrival depends on preventive measures."

How do you think the public and farmers would react to the use of genetically modified bacteria in the soil? Would they prefer it to a GM banana?
"Especially in European countries it could cause some unrest. With regards to using a GM banana, I understand that the risk of contamination is lower than with other plants, but you would end up with one or two cultivars and you would have the same situation again. You develop a new cultivar that is resistant to TR4, and then in 20 years TR5 appears and attacks the new cultivar. I have my doubts in such a path of research, and you can’t bet here on just one horse: we are talking here about the livelihoods of millions of people. We should think instead of, for example, bringing more biodiversity to plantations."

Do you see any problems our synthetic bacteria could bring?
"Well, you should be aware that perhaps this research does not lead to anything. I know of some research carried out in Latin America. It took them years to isolate combinations of microorganisms that could control Race 1, and when they inoculated them in the soil the results were not really conclusive. Some plants got sick and recovered, others didn’t… This is a very complex matter."

How do you see our project with respect to other approaches?
"I think it could be promising. Anything should be tried out. The approach to fight the disease with microorganisms is not new and has failed before, but in this specific case it might work. I also think it is very encouraging to have a multidisciplinary approach, we need the knowledge of several disciplines, and that a group of young people are interested in the topic."

Maricar is a PhD student who comes from the Philippines, a country where bananas are an important cash crop (the Philippines is the third exporter of bananas in the world), and Panama disease is seriously affecting them. What's more, she studies the epidemiology and agro-ecology of Fusarium oxysporum With her background and expertise, knowing her opinion was a must.

The Philippines is one of the hardest hit countries by Panama disease. How would you describe the situation? What kind of losses does it cause?
"Well, here in Mindanao, one of the largest islands and where commercial banana plantations are, Fusarium is wherever banana plants are. We are implementing very strict quarantine measures, especially with commercial plantations, which cover up to thousands of hectares. As for losses, I cannot give you a figure, but some farms can lose a significant part of their production. Some areas are even being abandoned now because of the disease. Panama disease is definitely one of the big problems in the industry now. They describe it as a silent killer of banana."

Apart from quarantine measures, what else is done to fight Panama disease?
"We don’t know yet what the best solution is! Putting chemicals in the soils to control it is, I think, not an option and never will be. But one of the things that are done is strict controls when entering and leaving the plantation, you have to step on disinfectants. The same is done with vehicles. The problem is that small scale farmers do not follow this so religiously, so Fusarium keeps spreading. Farmers also practice rice hull burning. They surround banana plants with rice hull and burn them for days. The idea is that the soil will get so hot all of the Fusarium will die, but there is no proof that this is effective, and it might even help it spread! Fusarium is already hard to kill, and perhaps they are only eliminating it from the upper layers of the soil, but farmers don’t really have much of a choice, since there is nothing available that is really effective."

Are there any alternative solutions that you consider promising?
"Some companies sell disinfectants or sort of a vaccine for the plants, but so far there is no product scientifically proven to be effective."

How fast do you think Panama disease will spread to new areas?
"That’s a hard question to answer, but it depends on the people being vigilant, quarantine measures, etc."

And now, regarding our project. Our plan is to use a genetically modified organism in the soil. How do you think the Filipino public would react?
"The Philippines is a country that is more or less open to GMO-based products, in fact we are one of the biggest consumers of GM corn. I think they would accept it, and I have heard from farmers that they would even accept a GMO banana that is resistant to Fusarium. Of course, there would also be some opposition."

And do you think it would fit with Filipino regulations?
"With the importance of bananas in our economy, I think that is not impossible."

Would you prefer a GMO banana or our synthetic bacteria?
"If I were a farmer, I would choose whichever is available sooner. And since making a GM banana would take years and years, you’d win the race."

Do you see any problems that our project would create?
"The soil is a complicated community. If it can also kill microorganisms other than Fusarium that are beneficial it would be trouble."

Kaushik is a biotechnology student from India. He told us all about what bananas mean to them and how BananaGuard would be seen at his home country.

Could you explain the cultural significance of bananas in India?
"I come from the south of India, where we have large banana plantations.We use almost every part of the banana plant: my grandma could even say of someone that he is “as useful as a banana plant”. We use the leaves as plates, and the stem to make soup, gravy or fibers. We also use the flowers in special occasions as a symbol of prosperity and happiness."

How would a world without bananas be for you?
"I could not live in a world without bananas! My granny once made a vegetable gravy using bananas flowers and I really want to try it one more time. And the banana chips! I'm going back to India next month and I'll bring 10 bags when I come back to Europe."

And how about its economic relevance?
"It's huge, and since we use nearly everything, there are a lot of people living on the banana economy."

What do you think Indian farmers would prefer to use, a GM banana or our synthetic bacteria?
Indian farmers are not very motivated about using GMOs, or chemical products for that matter. We had Bt cotton, which gave a good yield the first year, but the second year the plants could not survive. The farmers would prefer a more natural, organic solution.

So you think Indian people would be open to use our synthetic bacteria?
"It would be fine to use it if you are sure that it doesn't harm the plant. Since you are not changing the plant itself, I think farmers would be happy to use it. But there is a very strong environmental sector in India and it would be a concern if you bacteria persisted in the field."

Javier is a doctor in Agronomic engineering who works at Coplaca, the largest banana cooperative in the Canary Islands, where bananas represent a large part of agriculture, although Tropical race 4 is not present. As a professional in the industry, he gave us his perspective on the threat of Panama disease and BananaGuard.

Tropical race 4 is not present in the Canary islands, but could it be a menace to the banana industry there?
"I think climatic conditions play an important role in this. It seems that our climatic conditions are not the same as in countries affected by Panama disease. On the other side there is an order than bans the import of plant materials,including banana plants; all the material we use is our own. But after all, we can't really shrug it off, because it seems here we get a new plague each year (chuckles)."

What if tropical race 4 appeared in the Canary islands? What would be done about it?
"I don't have the solution to it (laughs), but I think the solution would come from physical measures, more than chemical. Usually good soil management beats applying phytosanitary products. I also think it would have a more difficult time getting established here, because in our soils it would face a lot of competition."

Race 1, however, is present in the Canary Islands. What kind of problems does it create?
"Well, outbreaks here are sporadic. When it does appear, which is usually after rainy, cold winters, it affects patches of the plantation, which vary in size according to climatic and agronomic conditions. The farmer has already gotten used to living with it, and they try to control tightly nitrogen fertilization, which is usually too careless, and irrigation. Nonetheless, although he haven't managed to eliminate it, it's not that big of a problem for us."

How long do you think it will take for Fusarium to get to South America?
"I don’t dare to make a prediction. Anyone could, for example, import something illegally, but I think it would take time for it to get settled."

Do you think there are promising solutions being developed?
I don’t know of any promising novel solutions, although I think your project may have a future. Suppressive soils in which Fusarium can't grow could also help.

What do you think the future is for banana farming under this threat?
"I think we will end up finding a balance after this crisis, that no pathogen today will manage to wipe out an entire crop, as with potato blight in Ireland, with the knowledge we have today. We will manage it much better than with previous crises: fertilization is better managed today, greenhouses are more controlled..."

Do you think it is viable to put GMO in the soil?
"Obviously, it won't sound good to most people, although I think from a legal standpoint it could be entirely possible, specially in most banana producing countries . It has to be guaranteed, however, that the use of this technology is not going to affect other processes and microorganisms in the soil."

Do you see immediate problems with our project?
"In the first place, GMOs in general don't have good press to start with, and as we were saying now, it could be affecting the soil ecology. We would need field experiments and extensive documentation on how the GMO bacteria works to support that there is no risk of horizontal gene transfer, that it's not interfering with trophic networks, etc."

How would the public react to using a modified bacteria in the soil?
"Not well, definitely! People with technical know-how could embrace it and admit it as one technology more that is available. I, personally, see more danger in using other solutions like organophosphoric compounds, which are environmentally dangerous. than in using this sort of biocontrol solution. But this is my personal opinion: some colleagues would simply say “no GMOs!”."

Let's say that Tropical Race 4 shows up in the Canary Islands and we finally completed our GMO bacteria. What would you think of using it?
"First I would need to verify that the law allows it, and that you have done studies showing that it's not going to cause trouble in the soil. Although I personally don't support the use of GMO plants in certain conditions, I think we don't have to stop progress, just bad applications of technology, but we need the greatest guarantees."

What if a GM banana that was resistant to Fusarium was developed?
"Resistance based on GMOs, I think, end up not working. With bananas there is no risk of spreading the transgenic plant, but probably you would just get, in time, a new variety of Fusarium that attacks the new banana plant."

Which is preferable, a self-destructing bacteria or one that stays in the roots?
A priori the former makes more sense, that's what we do with our biocontrol. That way you prevent it from getting established in the ecosystem and driving out other species from their ecological niche.

How do you see our project versus other possible treatments?
"I see it as more interesting than the the use of plaguicides and other molecules, but less interesting than good soil management."

Have you heard of any synthetic biology approaches to agricultural problems before?
"No, I have no reference of such a thing, except only traditional GMOs. But now I do!"

Thanks to these interviews we could assess how people will view BananaGuard and the guarantees we would have to provide for the public to trust it. It also gave us insight into how people with first-hand experience view the current crisis with Panama disease. This plague is causing losses both for large businesses and small farmers, threatening food security and the sustenance of millions. Listening to them further encouraged us to find a solution. And not only that, we have also learned that bananas are not just a staple food or a cash crop, but they can also be of cultural importance.

It is clear that although the people we interviewed have a healthy dose of skepticism on the efectiveness of BananaGuard might show or its hypothetical impacts in the environment. Yet, they view it more positively than other possible solutions, like genetically modified banana plants or fungicides, and think legislation would probably allow its use. Of course, as they also remark, the layperson or even some of their colleagues may not embrace it as they do. Nonetheless, overall it does seem that, even if with some opposition, BananaGuard will be accepted.